Comments on: Flexibility and the theological college express http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/ challenging convictions, encouraging ministry Fri, 14 Jun 2013 01:02:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1 By: Peter Bolt http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2116 Peter Bolt Thu, 16 Apr 2009 03:42:57 +0000 http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2116 And, now that I have become cheeky, can I take an extra step and say that there is something rather disturbingly ‘individualistic’ about your answer. Who decides what is ‘best’? The person themself? or does what is best arise from the task that is set before them, the responsibility they will have over others, the ‘demands’ of a congregation for excellent teaching and theological direction, the judgement day? Part of the usual understanding of full time (and long-enough time) theological education in the formation of pastors of congregations (boy, these qualifications make it difficult to talk about the thing!) has been that it occurs as part of a community in which individuals are shaped together, and in the process, what I thought I was like, is actually exposed, critiqued, deconstructed, renovated, renewed, so (if it all works well) the person exiting at the end is different and better equipped to be the pastor and theological shaper of a community of God’s people.
Yes, I am saying that for those who are going to be pastor-teachers of congregations, then they ought to do full-time theological education. It will be best for them, so that they will be best for their congregations. The variety of courses and options and exceptions that are already in place enable people to flex into a track in which they can get the most. However, those who are going to be judged more severely for being teachers of God’s people (James 3), need to be equipped and shaped in the best possible way. In fact, my slogan would be that every christian needs to have as much theological education as their ability and circumstances allows. But for the pastors, this best has come from full-time theological education in a community of other learners, it is still coming from that setting, and I would hope that the congregations and the denominations and the officials that serve the congregations would continue to demand the best for their future ministers. And, if they demand this best, that they then give time, make space, find support, add encouragement etc to this enterprise.
As for being committed to a four year programme? No, I won’t be tied down to that. It is a complex world, on top of the studies that help us understand that world theologically, and on top of the content of the scriptures themselves, we have the bible’s original languages and 2000 years of Christian history and Reflection to get on top of, let alone all the personal transformation and challenge that will bring as we learn together; and, come to think of itl, we are studying GOD—I think 6 or 8 years would be better!

]]> By: Peter Bolt http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2115 Peter Bolt Thu, 16 Apr 2009 03:41:21 +0000 http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2115 Sorry all for being tardy in posting, I have been off the air over easter weekend. Glad to see the discussion has continued – and that it appears to have raised some strong passions!
I guess this post was really critiquing a ‘hurry up let’s get it over with’ kind of attitude to theological education, which raises questions of value and quality (which, I agree, are far more important than mere ‘time spent’). The thing is, if you want best value and quality, this will require time spent too, and focused, undistracted time. Someone did once say it is a bit tricky to serve two masters, … and I am sure he had the fulltime/parttime issue at least slightly in mind, didn’t he?
Rhetorical sloganeering is the use of ‘slogans’ for rhetorical purpose. In the context of this discussion it would be the slogan ‘theological colleges are inflexible’. A slogan doesn’t say anything really (you have to ask, in what sense? what do you mean? etc for clarity). It is rhetorical, because depending on the slogan it ‘slants’ the hearer for or against it by the language, not by any concrete detail or argument (so, who wants to be ‘inflexible’ etc). That is why i have asked for more argument about what is meant, what the problem is we are trying to solve, why aren’t multiple options apparently not part of ‘flexibility’ etc etc.
Steve, your answer to these kinds of questions is that people and situations are different. True, that is why there have always been ‘exceptions’ made to the ‘norm’. But why should an exception become a norm?
And, Hayley, I take it you are amongst that group and your longer time at it will certainly be fruitful, but will have its own challenges. Every Christian is capable of theological reflection, as you note, and ought to do it, but the ones who are going to be the theological leaders of churches ought to be reflecting at the highest and deepest level possible, don’t you think?
And Steve, I think your word ‘scathing’ is a bit ‘scathing’ of my point about part time options in Colleges being market driven, rather than educationally driven—I think you will probably find that this is true if you look into it. Or, alternatively, can you point to the practitioners in theological education who argue that part time is better than full (in theological education)? Can you discount the places that have taken this step and now say it was a bad one to take?
But, Steve again, it is a bit hard to know how to reply to your point really, when you say ‘I did IT part time and that suited me—which you then extend to theological education. If I were to be cheeky I would say, isn’t this just shifting the ‘inflexibility’ (to lapse into sloganistic rhetoric) to another spot, i.e. to what you were like, are like, and ever shall be like? And wouldn’t it be possible for those who know theological education to provide an equally ‘personal’ answer by saying, ‘the best kind of theological education is full-time’. Where do we go now? neither has a biblical mandate, does it?

]]> By: Steve Kryger http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2114 Steve Kryger Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:47:43 +0000 http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2114 I feel like I’m banging the same drum – I don’t mean to sound monotonous or narrow-minded. I’m just trying to explore the possibility of different models for different people, in different situations.

I’m not sure the ‘one size fits all’ method is necessarily best (and whilst I hear you Sandy that there are exceptions, the exceptions seem to be few and far between).

I’m also conscious that what is best for one person, might not be best for another. I hear what Peter is saying – i.e. that 4 years full-time is best, but the best way for some, might not be the best way for all.

]]> By: Steve Kryger http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2113 Steve Kryger Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:40:29 +0000 http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2113 Hi Sandy, I certainly don’t want to misrepresent either yourself or Peter. I assumed from your earlier comment (below) that you were speaking about 4 years, because this was the next step in the levels of education you were discussing:

“But also understand that certain responsibilities will typically only be given to those who have studied to a certain level. And directing a large ministry unit, in our context and probably in most contexts, requires the best theological education possible in the circumstances.”

Is it possible to do the above (i.e. lead a large ministry unit), without 4 years at Moore?

]]> By: Hayley Neal http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2112 Hayley Neal Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:15:06 +0000 http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2112 To SANDY: I agree that “the Diocese has the right to set its standards high for this ministry (and then to make exceptions in exceptional cases)”. I think this is a good/helpful thing…

But does this mean that Moore College BDiv really only exists to serve men who will have parish oversight?

I think this is a stereotype of Moore college that many wrestle with: that is Moore college only offers one type of academic/pastoral training for one type of person/ministry… without recognizing the diversity of gifts, personalities and ministry opportunities???

To TIM: why does someone who wants to study half/part time have to study at another college… especially if they are an ‘Anglican’ and they would like to take some more academically ‘rigorous’ classes?

]]> By: Sandy Grant http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2111 Sandy Grant Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:48:58 +0000 http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2111 In other words, Steve, you are not representing Peter or myself fairly when you said

That said, I don’t agree with Sandy. Why is the greatest number of years studying (i.e. 4 years at Moore), the necessary qualification to pastor a church? {snip}
There seems to be a prevailing attitude that “4 years full-time study at Moore Theological College” is the only acceptable pathway into pastoral ministry.

I know of no one who is arguing that. Neither Peter nor myself have said that. This is the error of exaggerating what your opponent says to make it look ridiculous.

The 4 year Moore degree requirement is for ordination to the Presbyterate, which is now defined as suitability for parish oversight (going alongside with a practical assessment program re. suitability in other respects while a deacon).

Parish oversight – directing the overall ministry and mission of a multi-congregational unit – is generally a greater challenge than pastoring a single congregation.

And the Diocese has the right to set its standards high for this ministry (and then to make exceptions in exceptional cases).

But of course it’s not the only valid way into valid ministries of the Word, even including parish oversight.

]]> By: Sandy Grant http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2110 Sandy Grant Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:39:43 +0000 http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2110 I think Peter has been stating the case in strong language to defend against the erosion of quality and depth in theological education. Basically I agree. And yet of course, if you simply read his strong language outside its context (the rhetoric of the opinionated bloggosphere for a start), it could sound like a legalism of commanding what the Bible does not command (“Thou shalt not ordain a pastor without a 4 year theological education.”)

However, if you can read past the rhetoric, Peter has not argued that. Just that full time and lengthy theological education is one of the best – perhaps the best – form available to us in our context.

Personally I think there could probably be a few more exceptions to the rule of not ordaining parish presbyters unless they have the 4 year Moore degree or something equivalent in quality plus a bit of time at Moore. But only a few! And for exceptional people, because the role of parish oversight is so challenging it needs the greatest theological depth possible.

And as I and other have pointed out, there is already lots of flexibility – though perhaps under-used – this year I attended the ordination of Anglican deacons in our diocese, which included two from Youthworks with diplomas not degrees. And parishes are employing people from Youthworks and SMBC and elsewhere as well as from Moore, not all with 4 year degrees, and not all ordained.

]]> By: Tim Grant http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2109 Tim Grant Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:50:52 +0000 http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2109 “There seems to be a prevailing attitude that “4 years full-time study at Moore Theological College” is the only acceptable pathway into pastoral ministry”

is this really a true comment Steve? I guess it is when we’re talking about Anglican Ordination but paid (or then again unpaid) ministry is far greater than just this. If you are right Steve then I think we need to oppose this attitude with great vigor.

Is it perhaps our pathways (i.e. MTS, local churches, etc) rather than our theological colleges which push the 4year option as the only option available – even if indirectly?

I would hate for someone who was not suited to full time study to feel excluded from ministry. On the other hand I have a friend leading a Brethren church in Melbourne who was appointed from the congregation and laments that he had not done full time theological training prior to his appointment and now has to squeeze it in around the demands of pastoral ministry. He genuinely feels like his congregation misses out because of his theological shortcomings – though I wonder if we don’t all feel like that regardless.

Helpful comments thanks Pete.

]]> By: Steve Kryger http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2108 Steve Kryger Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:03:15 +0000 http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2108 I agree that we need to be steadfast and firm, immoveable, not drifting with every wind of doctrine. But am I more likely to be moved, less steadfast and and prone to drifting if I don’t go to college for 4 years full-time? Is there any reason why part-time, with a greater support structure post-college, wouldn’t work just as effectively?

I think it’s fair to say that you are scathing of part-time study, e.g. assuming that colleges moving to part-time have done this for marketing, not educational purposes. I don’t think you can make this assertion. Nor can you assume that people wanting to study part-time are less interested in the long-term (as you did in your other post). There are good and valid reasons why people desire part-time study.

For instance, different people learn differently. For someone like me, the combination of study and practical ministry is the most effective way to learn.

]]> By: Steve Kryger http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2107 Steve Kryger Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:04:44 +0000 http://www.matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2009/04/flexibility-and-the-theological-college-express/#comment-2107 Hi Peter, I’m not sure what you mean when you say “rhetorical sloganeering”. Could you please explain what you mean?

]]>